Combat Lifesaver Training

[rationtin440]

As I was discharged in 2001, I'm not sure how this is done in our military, but are the "Combat First Responder A" people in the bundeswehr also issued the CANA (convulsant antidote for nerve agent) injectors? When I was in the military, only the medics were issued these injectors, and there was some controversy over issuing them to the CLS people. These injectors were in addition to the nerve agent antidote kits.

[housil]

Every German soldier should get an autoinjector with Atropin in case of a war.

[rationtin440]

The CANA injectors were in addition to the atropine and 2PAM Chloride injectors, and when my unit was activated for desert shield, only myself and the other ambulance crews were issued the CANA because our commanders thought that the infantrymen would not properly use them as they were only to control convulsions (well duh, that's why we have training? lol)--- they were even worried that these antidotes and CANA injectors would be used "recreationally" please! how many times can nerve agent antidote kits be abused! The stuff is almost as bad as the nerve agent itself! Well lets just say we had one female in our unit who gave herself the injectors during a Scud attack one night because she had a bad case of "war nerves" and she could not seal her mask; needless to say she flat-lined a couple times before we finally got her stabilized, but she certainly did not get high.

[Stef]

I remember those atropine syringes : they had a practice version containing only sterilized water but with a real needle and they were asking for volonteers to stick that into their thighs thru the trousers
I also remember the boxes labeled "MORPHINE" kept in the trailer of our platoon leader's jeep. During an exercise, we were waiting in "the bad part" of a city and all the local young guys were around the car trying to see what was kept inside (we only had blanks in our FAMAS)

[Cracker]

rationtin, your right..
Most heavy antidotes are overpowered, because most threats are also very overpowered. They simply have to be, just to function effectively.

An antropin antidote shot is quite a high dose of antropin.. Some people can take a lot of it, others much less. So even when using it, people might simply die because of the antidote.
It's also a last resort measurement.. If you don't use it, your dead anyways.. so you can better take your chances and use it when it's nescecary.

[rationtin440]

Thanks for in-put everyone! Stef, I recall my uncle telling me that when he was on a nike-hercules missile crew in Connecticut in the early 60s they still had the old atropine styrettes with the needle that you had to jab yourself in the thigh and squeeze the drug into you. He does not recall them even having the 2PAM Chloride. And Cracker, I'm not sure what the bad effects of the 2PAM are except with what happened to the soldier I mentioned but neither drug is very good for you even when you do need it!

[housil]

Most heavy antidotes are overpowered, because most threats are also very overpowered. They simply have to be, just to function effectively.

It´s not the too much that makes an antidote working!
You have to understand what the poision makes into your body like block the acethylcholinesterase inside of your nerval synapsis and what kind of medicin you have to apply to work against. (Atropin does NOT effect to this! You will need "Toxogonin" (German brand) for too!! )
It´s not a question of amount! But I doesn´t want to go too deep into the pharamcology, physiology nor pathophysiology.

An antropin antidote shot is quite a high dose of antropin.. Some people can take a lot of it, others much less. So even when using it, people might simply die because of the antidote.
It's also a last resort measurement.. If you don't use it, your dead anyways.. so you can better take your chances and use it when it's nescecary.

It´s Atropin, without "N"
This injectors are not designed to be used i.v. They are designed to be shot thrue the clothing into the skin/muscle tissues. So it had to be high dose as subdermal (subcutaneos s.c.) injections take a much longer time vs. i.v´s. until your system will respond.
We use 1mg i.v. injections, the antidote is a 100mg ampul. It´s 100 times more!


Atropin is only necessary to handle the overacting parasympathetic nervous system that will interact with your heart rate, blood preassure etc... caused by the blocked synapses.
But "much helps much" isn´t it!

[Cracker]

that's what was explained to me at the time

[ak70g2]

Housil, do you mind if you teach a crash-course about medical emergencies? I think everyone of us need some knowledge in case of a car accident, or so. You can do a separate topic on that. That's beside my need to know for my Search and Rescue training.

[housil]

that's what was explained to me at the time

I guess, an egg teached another egg being a hen (German saying)

Housil, do you mind if you teach a crash-course about medical emergencies

1. Stay calm
2. Keep the victim warm
3. Call for help...

Adrian, I realy appreciate your trust, but reading about a treatment isn´t it. You need to practice and need to know some backgroung how the body and all your system works.
I would recommend, if somebody interessted to improve "first aid"skills, join your local organisation and get trained there. They teach you all neccessary theory and supervise you and your treatment and how to use equipment.