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My apologies housil, I forgot to mention the other meds needed along with atropine, including the anti-convulsants. All in all your EMS system looks far superior to ours here. Nice pic of you and your wife, and I hope I'm not out of line to say she is very pretty.

Thanks for heads up about Israeli exercise biscuits browns.

rationtin440 wrote:... and I hope I'm not out of line to say she is very pretty.

That´s why I took her

Guys, plain and simple...In the U.S the private corporations a.k.a HMO's rule the health system. Doctor's and hospitals create their "systems", there is NO public run option.The only public health option is called the Medicare, for elderly adults and the Medicaid for people who receive public Welfare benefits.But beleive me the pivate corps "bleed " the system by ballooning the costs..$$$$$$$
People here is most for profit than to really help the people, but is not everybody but this is how the system has been since the creation of the HMO concept in the 60's.
If you try or mention the concept of universal healthcare run by the goverment , like in Canada, the UK or Europa,they inmediatly call it socialism, communisnm or another bunch of epitets with out knowing how you guys work....

The Dutch system works the same as the german one.. (Ehh.. since 1941..) with public health insurance etc..
There were some changes throughout the years, but still kept the same principal..

In the Netherlands there isn't always a emergency doctor on board, but the medical flights do.
There isn't much need for it, because the Netherlands are much more accesible then some parts of Germany..
(Everything is build full here, and we have a hospital every 20 kilometers.. (We have 3 of them within 15 minutes drive where I live..)

But Housil..
I probably know the awnser already.. but is there ánything you can do in case of a nervegas attack to help a victim, if you don't have "fancy" stuff like atropin?
(Ofcourse wearing an proper NBC suit)

With a heavy dose of nervegas any help will be to late, even with antropin, but victims with a less lethal dosis .. can you give them some sort of first aid untill the emergency crews arrive? (can take a while if you have multiple victims in a mass scale attack)

Cracker wrote: But Housil..
I probably know the awnser already.. but is there ánything you can do in case of a nervegas attack to help a victim, if you don't have "fancy" stuff like atropin?

Without any antidote (you will need more than just atropin only!)?!



Depends what poison was used, read this (in German):

http://www.gifte.de/B-%20und%20C-Waffen ... stoffe.htm

This "nerve agents" interact with the synapses and make the nerve after the synapses permanent to be "agitaded", causing at least seizures and let te patient sufficate from a seizure of his phrenic and all other "breathing muscles". Also your whole system turns down as your 10th cranial nerve ("vagus") is also affected.

That's why I said Atropin and stuff like that

I knew there was very little that you can do, but I was wondering if countering the symptoms might enlarge someone's chances of survival for a while. The chance that we will ever encounter it is very small, and I hope I'll never have to find out what it's like..

I do not know if nervous gas is a temporary danger, or something that simply busts up your body for good.
Nervegas tends to do braindamage aswell.. So if you give someone atropin and antidote.. he'll probably still won't recover right? Only when he only had a very very small amount of the gas in his system?

Long story short;

If there is an attack with an dirty bomb (with nervegas).. is it usefull to give first aid to people (while wearing full NBC gear) or should you better simply get the hell out of there, because those people are "screwed" anyways?

Because your obligated as an "medic" (wrong term, because that's an notarzt, but don't know how to call it in english) to help people where you can. But if it's useless anyways, there isn't any use in risking your own life..

Cracker wrote: I do not know if nervous gas is a temporary danger, or something that simply busts up your body for good.
Nervegas tends to do braindamage aswell.. So if you give someone atropin and antidote.. he'll probably still won't recover right? Only when he only had a very very small amount of the gas in his system?

Your brain are actually "only" nerves too.
You can poision somebody with everything - even with water. It just depends to the dose.
So atropin isn´t an antidote only. Due to the dose, we use it in case of cardiac arrest (asystol), to low RR and to slow heart rate (0,5mg/1ml). We also give it to prevent hypersalivation that occures as an sideeffect when certain aneasthetics are in use like Ketamin (Ketanest).

We used it daily at non gas victims. That "...gas in his system..." is nonsens and an urban legend

Cracker wrote: If there is an attack with an dirty bomb (with nervegas).. is it usefull to give first aid to people (while wearing full NBC gear) or should you better simply get the hell out of there, because those people are "screwed" anyways?

I have my whole family prepared and equiped, but wouldn´t take care for the whole neighborhood
If I´m on duty, that´s my job.

Cracker wrote: Because your obligated as an "medic" (wrong term, because that's an notarzt, but don't know how to call it in english) to help people where you can. But if it's useless anyways, there isn't any use in risking your own life..

The "Norarzt" is an ER Doctor - a physician - never call them "just" a "medic". Calling us "paramedic" or "medic" for short is the right term.

The Dutch military Hospik (= medic) is a ER doctor aswell.. that's why I don't know how to say it on english.. I mean someone that gives first aid.. like a sanitäter..

But there's nothing much you can do to help without the right "tools" then?

Cracker wrote: But there's nothing much you can do to help without the right "tools" then?

Yep. I personally wouldn´t even touch them! Most nerve agengts make their way into the body thru the skin. If you touch a contaminated person, you poision your self aswell

The very first rule of treating intoxications/poisonings is: Stop the intake/exposure

Either close/turn off/ cover the source OR move patients away from the place they were contaminated into a "clean" area. But this will only help to prevent from getting worse.

Any treatment of intoxications is difficult as you don´t know the exactly poison, the amount of intake, the time of exposure and how the single person react to the agent.