Russian invasion of Crimea

[fdsman]

What are your thoughts on this? I know that most of Ukraine isn't happy about it, and the whole disguise of democracy, and voting on becoming part of Russia while there are Russian troops there makes me laugh.

[housil]

I think it´s not THIS easy to answer....

Most reports don´t mention, that the Ukraine has a contract with Russia about that Navy harbor.
Ukraine has leased that harbor to Russia until 2047 and due to that contract, Russian is allowed to have thousand of troops over there to "protect" their harbor and their Back Sea Fleet with nuclear submarines.

On the other hand, Russia get´s more and more surrounded by NATO member countries. So remember what the US did when Russia planed to station nukes at Cuba in the 1960s. Russia is scared to loose it´s power and if do you know "Russian habit´s and mentality", Russia deals all problems with "the fist"
Russians will never withdraw as this might be a sign of weakness.

[ak70g2]

Eastern half of Ukraine are Russian speaking ethnic population, which want to make a very close link with Russians (common heritage/languange, economic benefit, national pride, etc), while Western half is more like Polish people (western Slavs, different language, a more liberal thinking, and not least, an important Jewish tradition).

Historically, Crimean peninsula belongs to the Russians, was "gifted" to the Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev in 1950', 80% of population are ethnic Russians and Russia invaded it to "protect Russian people's rights".

My hometown is 300 km far of Sevastopol.

[Bypah]

Well...here I go
Olli and Adrian got it right.
This issue is not easy to explain specially to the people of the US.
First, Crimea was Russian until 1954 when Nikita Kruschev gave it to the the Soviet Socialist Republic of Ukraine ( Ukraine SSR) as a gesture of good will amongst the old soviet republics.
Second, during WWII most of the ukranians sided with the germans in order to defeat the dreaded communist hordes of the soviets. By doing this they became part of the many divisions of the SS (14. Waffen Grenadier Division der SS (galizische Nr.1) ). Now these people still exist and are now part of the far extreme neofascist-right (Svoboda, Trizub and Pravyi Sektor "right Sector). These are the "pro democracy" groups that hijacked the protests and established the coup against the ukranian regime. The sad part is that the west specially the U.S. stand behind these thugs.

The issue is that in the region of the Caucasus, there always have been a struggle between the forces that advocate being art of Europe and the forces that are "pro-east" or simply want to be part of Russia. Similar thing happened in the Balkans for many centuries and ended in 1914 with WWI and the dreaded Bosnian war of the 1990's.
This is as simple I can put it. If you want to know more simply google or look for information of those regions specially in the 19th century.

IMHO, the United States has nothing to look there and the Europeans need to simply try to solve this with diplomacy. I bet 2 times in the 20th century is enough.

[Bypah]

What are your thoughts on this? I know that most of Ukraine isn't happy about it, and the whole disguise of democracy, and voting on becoming part of Russia while there are Russian troops there makes me laugh.

Well, If we want to put it this way. Same thing happened here in the US backyard with the "Commonwealth" of Puerto Rico. If I use your words then the more than 3 times the people have "voted" to stay with the US would be considered illegal because of the military presence in the island and the economic pressure the local government was put by the US?
Is interesting to see the double standard....just saying

[Bypah]

I think it´s not THIS easy to answer....

Most reports don´t mention, that the Ukraine has a contract with Russia about that Navy harbor.
Ukraine has leased that harbor to Russia until 2047 and due to that contract, Russian is allowed to have thousand of troops over there to "protect" their harbor and their Back Sea Fleet with nuclear submarines.

On the other hand, Russia get´s more and more surrounded by NATO member countries. So remember what the US did why Russia planed to station nukes at Cuba in the 1960s.

Olli, they forget the Missile Crisis in Cuba in the 60's which they almost brought the world to WWIII. Or when the Sandinistas won in Nicaragua and took out the US backed dictator of Somoza in 1979, they then financed the Contras guerrilla warfare against them and last but not least "Operation Urgent Fury" in 1983 when they invaded The Caribbean island of Grenada and took out the democratically elected government because they "leaned to the left" The excuse? To "protect" American citizens, a bunch of med school rejects.
They used the same excuse Putin used to send his troops.

Is interesting how the double standards are used at their convenience.

[fdsman]

Well...here I go
Olli and Adrian got it right.
This issue is not easy to explain specially to the people of the US.
First, Crimea was Russian until 1954 when Nikita Kruschev gave it to the the Soviet Socialist Republic of Ukraine ( Ukraine SSR) as a gesture of good will amongst the old soviet republics.
Second, during WWII most of the ukranians sided with the germans in order to defeat the dreaded communist hordes of the soviets. By doing this they became part of the many divisions of the SS (14. Waffen Grenadier Division der SS (galizische Nr.1) ). Now these people still exist and are now part of the far extreme neofascist-right (Svoboda, Trizub and Pravyi Sektor "right Sector). These are the "pro democracy" groups that hijacked the protests and established the coup against the ukranian regime. The sad part is that the west specially the U.S. stand behind these thugs.

Crimea is listed as being owned by: Cimmerians, Greeks, Scythians, Goths, Huns, Bulgars, Khazars, the state of Kievan Rus', Byzantine Greeks, Romans, Kipchaks, Ottoman Turks, Golden Horde Tatars and the Mongols; all before the 13th century. In the 13th century, it was partly controlled by the Venetians and by the Genovese; they were followed by the Crimean Khanate and the Ottoman Empire in the 15th to 18th centuries, the Russian Empire in the 18th to 20th centuries, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic and later the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union. In 1991 it became part of independent Ukraine, as the Autonomous Republic Crimea together with the city of Sevastopol.

If we're going to assign ownership based on who had it first, the Russians have absolutely no claim to it, because they were roughly 20th in line. Realistically whomever rightly owns it are either the first or current owners, because anyone in between acquired it from someone else.

You really can't just look back into what I would consider recent history to determine who has the rightful ownership of something. Take southwestern states that boarder Mexico for example. Here is a great piece on determining who has the rightful claim to land based on that example. If you are playing it in the forum, skip to 5:34

Either way, Ukraine did not take Crimea by force, since they were gifted it by the Soviet Union, Putin is showing a very extreme case of indian giving.

[prado67]

Sadly to hear and see that people neither in America, nor in Europe don't know a present state of affairs in the Crimea and in Ukraine because on TV show only that that is favorable to the USA, Germany and other western countries. For anybody a secret that after disintegration of the Soviet Union America declared that borders of NATO приблязятся to borders of the Russian Federation and new members won't be accepted. However it was the bald lie. NATO borders closely came nearer to our borders, is constant in Europe and other countries new bases are created, rockets are put. What fool it is necessary to be to believe that these rockets are put for protection against blow from Iran! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! If this is so why these rockets are put at our borders? ? ? We see that the USA didn't keep the word and tried to create the instability center near the closest our border and our the best partner Ukraine. Tried to disorganize any forces the country. Thus, as usual, disdaining nothing. Russia didn't allow it. And I think everything clearly that the main purpose is Russia. Round us every year all contracts a ring from the NATO countries more densely. Against whom this organization is directed? So if we are partners how declare the USA why not to dismiss this organization? Means there is a purpose why new members are accepted? There is a purpose is we. By means of mercenaries and the Ukrainian fascists of the USA made a military coup in Ukraine. The Crimea which till 1950th years there was a Russian and where lives almost all Russian-speaking population, didn't want that it the fascists who have come to the power in Kiev operated. The new Kiev fascist power forbade Russian, the Russian channels, Russian a site, fascists started walking the streets and to beat people. It wasn't pleasant to people and they asked for us protection. Anybody didn't enter army into the Crimea! Our armies stand in the Crimea on our Russian military base, from where they and left for protection of the population and order protection. And the people of the Crimea, having the right for self-determination, I held a referendum under the supervision of the European observers and I didn't want to live with фашистами.95% of people of the Crimea wanted to join Russia. The honest, not bribed USA the European observers recognized a referendum lawful. I will remind that this year the same referendum will take place in Catalonia, Spain, in Scotland, Great Britain and still somewhere in Europe. Then using double standards of the USA them already ahead of schedule it is possible to recognize illegal! But thus the USA with the standards were recognized lawful by separation of Kosovo from Serbia, speaking thus about an exceptional case. Having created in Kosovo a hot spot in Europe where now there is a traffic in arms, drugs, people, etc. Confesses the principle "share and dominate". Why on "free" European television don't show mass meetings across all East and the Southern Ukraine against the new power of fascists?

[prado67]

Why "independent" Europe is silent about that terror which untied NATO concerning the free countries - Iraq, Yugoslavia, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan?
What would be with allegedly peace demonstrators in the USA if they started showering a poition with bottles from gasoline, to shoot on police, to put out eyes captured, to burn the seized buildings? And in Ukraine the police at all didn't open fire on these bandits, and simply suffered!

[prado67]