Military winter gear

[ak70g2]

'coz I've graduated my SAR training with an 8/10 result, I'll look for next phase on it, the winter mountaineering. So, because here was a nice thread about sleeping bags (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3536), I'll ask our resident polar bear Norge and our canadian & Rockies members about their suggestions for winter gear, preferably military, with additions of military mountaineering gear (I have only french Petzl civilian gear) and sources for it.

[Treesuit]

Ak70G2,

I could give you my own impressions of stuff but I tend to go with more civilian stuff that has more earthy muted colors. REI is just up the road from me and they always have gear and kit that works no matter where you are. Tactical Tailor is just down the road and they mostly sell to police and military. I also buy online from kifaru.net as they cater to both and all of their stuff is built to last and custom made to you (i.e. you buy it and it stays with you for life)

Also it might be helpful how much your willing to spend on said such gear.

Here is a list of vendors that I dug up from another blog that I belong to. It is quite lengthy and if you want more I can dig up some other vendors. Though I can't say for sure if some of these vendors are still selling it has been over a year or two since I checked a few out.

NORTH AMERICA

Boots

Belleville
Danner
Oakley
Wellco
http://www.shoestoboot.com/category.cfm/172

-------------------------------

Eyewear

Oakley
ESS

-------------------------------

Gear/Pouches/Vests etc.

Blackhawk Industries
High Speed Gear.Inc
Tactical Tailor

-------------------------------

Online Stores

Optactical.com
USCavalry.com
Entrygear.com
Supplycaptain.com
ArmyNavySales.com
Rangerjoes.com
www.diamondbacktactical.com
www.dynamicdesignsusa.com
www.vickerstactical.com
www.brigadequartermasters.com
www.galls.com
www.midwayusa.com
www.bravocompanyusa.com/
www.outdoormarksman.com/
www.aimsurplus.com/
www.lauerweaponry.com/


AUSTRALIA / NZ

Online Stores

www.sordaustralia.com (excellent kit)
www.sasequip.com.au ( not bad stuff here)
www.australiancombatequipment.com
www.crossfire.com.au (alot of people like their DG-6 pack)
www.gridnorth.com.au
www.kitbag.com.au
www.tacticalshop.com.au
www.coolkit.com.au
www.aus-tac.com
www.combatclothing.com.au
www.soldier2soldier.com.au
www.scandex.com.au
www.brisbanedisposals.com
www.wellingtonsurplus.com.au/
www.camoshop.com.au/
www.platatac.com


UNITED KINGDOM

www.ansontactical.co.uk
www.arktis.co.uk
www.army-surplus.co.uk
cooneenwattsandstone.com
www.militarykit.com
www.sasskit.co.uk
www.sofmilitary.co.uk
www.strikeforcesupplies.co.uk
www.ukkitmonster.com
http://www.transworldsurplus.co.uk/
http://www.stoppa.co.uk/
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk
http://www.thecombatstore.co.uk
www.tauntonleisure.com
www.cotswoldoutdoor.com

Both of the last do will do ex-VAT to BFPO addresses and give a 10% HM Forces discounts. Cotswold in particular have a hsitory of supplying UORs to small units in strange places on short notice.

EUROPE

http://www.nfmcaseb.no
http://www.combatkit.net
http://www.miltrad.no
http://www.norrona.no
http://www.bergans.no
http://www.practac.no
http://www.capsicum.no
http://www.midwaynorge.com
ttps://www.gearshop.nl/
http://www.visiblesupply.nl
http://www.planetoutdoor.nl
http://www.noorloos-se.com
http://www.recon-company.com
http://www.ascent-equipment.de
http://www.d-gear.se/
http://www.asmc.de
https://www.gearshop.nl/

[ak70g2]

Brian, thank you very much! I'd asked because I'll be involved much more in "extreme outdoor" than before (as "normal" people, I tended not to sleep outside in the winter until now) and I needed to know what works for the guys that done this before, that's why I asked about Norge's and others' opinions. If you have some specific gear that work very good for you, please geve some suggestions.

[Morwin]

I would agree with Mr. Treesuit on the Kifaru equipment. I personally own and use many of their items. Their sleeping bags, cold weather clothing, and woobies are all excellent for keeping one very warm even when damp and compress to almost nothing and weight very little. I would thing being able to travel light would be very helpful in SAR work. I cant say that I have come across anything higher in quality or durability as of yet.

Just my two cents,

-Morwin-

[TurtleNomad]

+1 to Treesuit's civilian gear advice.
Modern military winter clothing has been heavily influenced by passionate civilian gear geeks.

The other major thing to consider is older military clothing, particularly wool.
Over here, it's cheap, and high quality.
I have a wool "shirt" that I regularly use as a jacket downto about -15C, with just a cotton tee shirt, wool hat & scarf, regular pants, and wool socks.

Wool rocks!

When it gets colder, I add thermals, a fleece/pile jacket, and a proper coat.

When I did the main part of my own SAR training (two decades ago), the first week they explained that we would only be flying down to -35C, due to machine limitations. They also explained we could pretty much wear anything (best dress code I've ever experienced!) while flying, except if any instructor felt we were insufficiently dressed for the current weather conditions, he could require us to stand outside for half an hour.

They then gave us the address of a local work clothing company, and gave a time that we would all be required to show up there (attendance was taken), and we were encouraged to buy anything that we had not obtained from our home units or already bought on our own (we were a mixture of CAP and Reservists (some were planning to go regular forces), just flying little stuff, and were horrendously underfunded).

I had previously done a fair bit of warm weather gear research and experimentation, but hadn't considered "work" type gear, and did buy some extra items, most of which I still own.

What sort of temperatures will you be training at?

At some point, I need to pick your brain for current SAR thinking/practices - I've been out of the loop for ages.

[ak70g2]

TurtleNomad, currently in Romania (SE Europe) the coldest temperature in the last 10 years was -23 degree centigrade. Average temperature in the January is around -9 degree centigrade/celsius. I've studied the ECWCS system but I don't know how good is it. If you say that military wool clothing is ok, maybe we can arrange a trade, i'd like to have some woolen underwear, a good balaclava/face mask, some wool socks and, if you can get, an "shirt" like yours.

i have plenty of chinese rations left, seems the Europe is not interested about it Also, i think I'll have soon one of Nicodim's russian rations to trade.

[rationtin440]

When I served in the national guard, we were always taught the concept of "layering" that is a few different shirts, sweaters, liners, etc., instead of a couple of really thick pieces of clothing. This system of layering would be essential in preventing problems associated with sweating from too much material in a couple things and then having nothing to change into or swap out. A couple things I recall were having to figure out a means of keeping warm when I was assigned to the M-113 and M-577 ambulance tracks because they were darn near impossible to heat properly inside, and my combat vehicle crewmans coveralls were hard to fit properly with limited sizes so it was a constant struggle to find something to put on underneath them that was not too thick. The other issue was that we occasionally had to cut a soldier's boots off of his/her feet because they made the mistake of sleeping in their boots with thick socks in the wintertime----a big no-no. I think that civilian cold weather clothing is much better than mil-issue stuff, especially the issue stuff that was available in the mid-1980s.

[Treesuit]

I would agree on the wool concept. I have a Korean era wool shirt and pants that still look very new even after I received them from my father after he retired from the Air National Guard. Seems back in 1970-1980's they were still getting really old throw backs. Even after a few bad winters here in the Pacific Northwest they are still holding up and I have even worn them to weekend drills in place of the ECWES-gortex clothing.

[TurtleNomad]

TurtleNomad, currently in Romania (SE Europe) the coldest temperature in the last 10 years was -23 degree centigrade. Average temperature in the January is around -9 degree centigrade/celsius.

That's shirt sleeve weather!

Ok, not quite, but that's not nasty cold. I'm glad you'll be doing your work in temperatures that are survivable, if properly attired and mentally prepared.

I'm sure they drilled into you how easy it is for an unprepared person to die from hypothermia even at temps as high as +10C.


You should be able to find European mil surplus much cheaper than swapping stuff across the ocean. If the shipping weren't so expensive, I'd definitely be very interested in your rations, so thanks for offering!

In particular, look for East German equipment - there's been a consistent flood of it, at very low prices, and I've always heard good reviews (both online and from reliable friends).

Personally, I go with regular cotton underwear, unless I'm expecting wet/soaking conditions. In general, avoid wool in direct contact with skin for long periods, unless it's a blend (like most modern wool socks). My wool "shirt" is uncomfortable at the wrists, if I use it too much.

For wool socks, check local "work" or hunting clothing supply companies. You can probably get a multi-pack for a decent price. I've tried high-end hiking wool socks, and "regular" work wool socks, and have found little advantage to the "high-end" socks. The "work" socks have lasted far longer. I do have some 20 year old wool "work" socks, most of which are somewhat "ratty", but still useable; none of the high-end socks lasted long. Note that that was before "Smartwool", of which I have one pair (haven't used much but they're nice!), so the newest generation may hold up far better (they're usually at least twice the price of good work socks).

The best thing is to buy a variety, and try them out.
Two decades ago, I bought a mix of gear from a hiking store, a work "wearhouse", and had some issue mil gear.

I ended up using a hodge podge of stuff that worked well for me.

Particularly with wool, buying local milsurp gives you high quality at cheap prices.
Some people love wool, some don't. It's highly subjective, so best to try frugally.

I don't spend anywhere near as much time outside as I did back then, but still use much the same gear. Once tested thoroughly, you'll just have to replace the occasional item as each wears out.

Here's my favorite gear, and is intended to give you and others ideas of stuff to try:

• regular cotton underwear and tee shirt (far more comfortable as my innermost layer, in my opinion - many folks do prefer man-made materials)
• low end thermal long underwear, cotton-poly blend ($5 at Walmart/Target)
• $1 polyester gloves
  (very small size, great for light winter use "around town", for not-too-cold photography, and as liners; I have a pair of these in all my emergency kits)
• wool socks, scarf, watch cap, (both) mittens/gloves, "shirt" used as a not-too-cold jacket (I also have a pair of milsurp wool pants I bought a year ago, but have not yet used them)
• fleece/pile/whatever as a middle layer: sweatshirt, light zippered shirt/jacket, heavier jacket
  (I haven't used the heavier jacket in years, because my local climate is similar to yours - when I lived in -40C areas, it was my main layer of insulation, sometimes combined with the light jacket)
• civilian/hiking Goretex coat, unlined (useable all year), mid-thigh (I recently retired it, after 20 years of continuous use - quality lasts!)
• Sorel snow boots (the kind with the felt liner rated to -40C), with inserts to provide better arch support and a firmer/stiffer walking experience
• civilian hiking boots, rubber lowers ("duck hunter" style), Thinsulate lined (used down to about -20C)

The watch cap and scarf are almost forty years old (birthday/Christmas gift from a relative), and still rock! I've tried several alternatives, and always came back to those. About once per year I wash them in a regular washing machine with regular (albeit "gentle") detergent, with no problems (I never put them thru the dryer).

Among the stuff I bought two decades ago, were a couple of polypro longjohn tops, but eventually both had dryer massive shrinkage mishaps (i.e. I or somebody else accidentally put them in the dryer). Otherwise, they were in great shape. Maybe modern stuff isn't as sensitive to heat shrinking?

For town use, I use regular running/walking shoes all year round, but switch from cotton to wool socks in coldest weather.
If I'm birding or doing something else outdoorsy, and there's snow on the ground (or temps below -20C), I use the Sorels.

Part of my bi-annual "prepper" routine is to move the Sorels into the car in the Fall, and swap in the hiking boots in the Spring (i.e. there is always one pair of decent cold weather boots in my car).


I've heard excellent reviews of "UnderArmour" longjohns, and plan to buy a set whenever I can get a good deal.

Last year, I bought some mil surplus items, including some parts (Balaclava, Poly-Pro Shirt, various mittens/socks) of the ECWS system, but haven't used any yet (except for the wool shirt - my old civilian wool shirt was lost in the 2008 Midwest flood).

Currently, they're in a knapsack in my car, in case of breakdown or if I encounter someone who needs them more than me.

If I get a chance, I'll field test some of them this winter (depends on my crazy work schedule - ugh!).

Good luck experimenting, and please do share your own experiences and preferences with us!

Even after a few bad winters here in the Pacific Northwest they are still holding up and I have even worn them to weekend drills in place of the ECWCS-gortex clothing.

Shiny!

Tree, what do you think of the individual components of the ECWCS system?

I tried a pre-ECWCS balaclava in my mid-teens, and wasn't too impressed at the time. Picked up one last year, and plan to give it a try.

[Treesuit]

TurtleNomad,

The ECWCS system has come a long way since I received my first set in 1996. The gear we have nowadays is quite extensive and you can mix and match pieces depending on where you are and what climate you in. The individual clothing has jumped by leaps and bounds since I went to Iraq in 2004. I really like the silk underwear tops and bottoms. Those are a better improvement over the older brown poly-pro top, bottoms and the thicker white long johns. I have a older black top and bottom rather than tan. The only thing I don't like in everything is the crappy ACU digital scheme. They should have kept things camo or green. Just my opinion.

I have a lighter grey/green rain top and bottom made for the folks in the SOF community that are under contract by Patagonia. I picked them up last year and used them once back in January. They were awesome even in cold snowy weather. Very water repellant and very light. Not to mention durable.

The thermal long underwear is better. The contract again is Patagonia and they have the new waffle pattern design and made the clothing less shrink resistant when it goes through the washer-dryer. I have a set and it's much lighter than the stuff we had in the 1990's, less bulkier too.

The only really disappointing thing is the wool socks. They're not 100% wool any more. They're a cotton, spandex, poly-something mix and maybe a hint of wool. When I came in wool socks were just that: wool. And very thin. Now the socks can't even hold up in a few trips through the washer before they "pill" up and shrink so much you can't get your feet in them anymore.

Since 2001 the military has been listening to the civilian hiking, backpacking, hunting, sports, industry and finally coming out with stuff that works and is very good.