New Zealand Defense Force isn't happy with me

[kman]

This will teach me to try to do the right thing...

You see, I put together this website mostly based on information I gathered from other sites on the internet. Some text from this site, a picture from that site and pretty soon, you have mreinfo.com.

I've received a couple of emails in the past from people who were miffed that I didn't give them proper credit for things I ripped off their websites. I try to give credit where it's due but in one case, I did forget to include a link and in another case the guy who was complaining obviously didn't read my site closely because right above the portion of text I took from his site, I wrote "taken from xxxxx site:".

So fresh off that last complaint, I started to work on putting together my Australian rations page. One of the sources of info for Australian rations is this site hosted in New Zealand. It contains menu info for Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, etc. Good stuff. So I figure I'll do the right thing and email the webmaster and ask (beforehand for a change) if it's ok if I reuse the info from his site.

So I email him and get a response back pretty fast - he says he'll look into it. Then today, I get this message. Names and organizations have been removed to protect the innocent, but you get the gist:

Subject: RE: request to use info from your site
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:29:20
From: "Name Removed" <address_removed@mil.nz>
Cc: someone@pacom.mil, someone@defence.gov.au, someone@NZDF.mil.nz

I have canvassed your request with the affected people within the <removed> organisation, and I have to advise that, as some of the material on your site goes against the ethical guidelines of most <removed> members, we would prefer not to be seen to be linking to it. This related to the inference on your "How to buy" page that MREs can be purchased from serving soldiers, which is not something most of our logisticians would permit.

I realise that we have placed the material in the public domain, and in that sense cannot prevent you from using it, and indeed thank you for your courtesy in asking, but would prefer any links you place on your site to not be seen to be associated with <removed>. In terms of use of the content, you are free to obtain information from the sponsors of any of the national pages. I have included the Australian and NZ sponsors in this email.

I must, however, ask that you remove any reference to <removed> on your web site.

With best wishes

<name removed>
<title removed> Logistic Support

So I had a couple of thoughts when I got this...

1) Ok, well at least he's nice enough in asking me not to link to his web site. Because he was nice, I won't mention the organization here.

2) I was really asking him if he wouldn't mind if I reprinted those menus he posted as MS Word docs to his site. His response seems to say "go ask these other guys for the info" - even though he has already placed the info in the public domain.

3) I'm not happy with the implication that mreinfo.com goes against any ethical guidelines but I guess it all depends on how you look at it. Logistics guys probably see us civilians as pains in the ass getting in the way of their supplies while us civilians have a genuine interest in things military and are just trying to be better informed.

[DangerousDave]

If you get tired of the horse----, just go bowling. and keep on with the mission. New Zealand? Who are they? Just some Island off the cost of Australia that supplies the USA with 1 hell of a lot of Gala and Braeburn apples. LOL Take care!

[paul heath]

KMAN,

Yikes, I have to make a confession. I am a lawyer. That being said it I would like to give you a free consultation. It appears that you may have two concerns:

1. Promoting the illegal sale of government property, ie MREs. Now would the Feds come after you? Probably not. But, then again, look what music companies did to the guys who downloaded Napaster songs.

2. Copyright infringement. welll, look at it this way academically... As long as you post the proper credits for your submissions you should be safe. The guy from NZ is correct in saying that once they put something on the public domain it is subject to all sorts of infringement. But as govt 'bean counters they have to protect their incomes.

So what to do? I suggest a general disclaimer ( a sticky should be fine) on the web site stating that you do not support the illegal sale of goverment property and this web site is for information and education. Secondly, list with proper credits the web sites that you have culled info from. Look it is not foolproof but then again the pill has a 99% success rate.

paulheath

Feel free to email on the side at plheath@hotmail.com

[kman]

Thanks for the advice, Paul. I do appreciate your recommendations.

But I'm wondering about the inference that I'm "promoting the illegal sale of government property". This seems to imply that selling MREs is illegal - a notion that I'm not completely sold on. You might have seen the web page where I lay out what happened with the DSCP trying to shut down all the Ebay MRE auctions.

If all MRE sales were really illegal, I would have expected Ebay to continue to ban them, as they do many other items. Of course I don't advocate selling or buying MREs that were actually stolen. Maybe this is what you think I need to clarify in a disclaimer?

I think the part of the website the NZ guy objected to was this quote: "If you know someone active in the military, there's a chance they can get some MREs for you. Full-time military personnel and part-time reservists/National Guard often get these during training/field exercises." This doesn't sound like advocating an illegal action, does it?

But I hear what you're saying - regardless of how innocent my intentions may be, there's always the chance someone with nothing better to do will take offense. So better safe than sorry I suppose.

So if you don't mind me imposing on you, do you have any recommendations for the verbiage for a general disclaimer? All I think of off the bat would be: "MREInfo.com and its maintainers do not support the illegal sale of government property. This web site is for informational and educational purposes only."

I could put that at the bottom of each page or just put a link to a separate disclaimer page.

[DangerousDave]

Our people at Bragg have had these silly conversations before. The final answer was, We will not throw food away, just to keep it from Civilians. Does'nt work anymore. If I'm given an MRE for lunch, and choose not to eat it, and take it downtown and sell it for $2.00, Thats my option. Kman, Don't pay any attention to the sillyness. It does'nt do a thing anymore, Unless changed by Uncle Sam.

[DIRTYDAVE]

My advice is to stick to the US MRE, after all this is called MRE or meal, ready to eat, a United States creation. Leave the other countries food to them and they can stick it as far as I am concerned. I don't ever look at any of the international rations pages anyway as that is not what interests me, but then that is my own opinion and it is right...HaHaHa.

As far as eBay is concerned, they sell so many illegal bootlegs DVDs and CDs. So they are the pot calling the kettle black and the government should shut eBay down for what they are doing. They are benefiting off of the sale of illegal items such as MREs and bootleg DVDs and CDs, but I guess that is what money and lawyers can do for you. Keep the criminal in business.

Screw the international rations Kman!

[deanopilot]

kman:
Must be something about lawyers and MRE's? I too must confess being a member of the MI and FL bars. I don't want to offer up any advice anonymously here, and won't. But, let me ask you three questions...US MRE's indicate that commercial sales are prohibited. Are not US MRE's distributed free in disaster relief operations ('04 hurricanes)? How are the recipients of those rations legally restricted from reselling same? Can you refer to some Federal or State statute the prohibits the sale of government property once that property has been legally placed into the hands of the public?
deano

[kman]

Those are good questions , Deano. To answer your first one, yes, US MREs have recently been distributed free in disaster and relief operations - most recently the hurricanes from last year. As I read about it in the papers, they had drive-through areas where each car was given two cases of MREs and a case of water.

As for the question of "how are the recipients of those rations legally restricted from reselling same?" I can't really answer that. Not being a lawyer myself, I can only go by my common sense approach - which is that if someone gives me something, it's mine to do with as I please. I can eat it or sell it or give it away.

[DangerousDave]

When units go out on FTX's and Arteps and such, The Battalion S4 orders how many cases they need. Usually, (I figure, they order slightly more than they think they need). After the cases leave the controlled temp. storage facility, they may NOT be returned. Then they are distributed to all the Company Supplies, then to the Platoons, etc. Once the exercise is over, and eveyone pulls back into the MotorHole, 3 or 5 or whatever days later, you have 2 cases in this victor, 1 and a half case in that victor, etc, etc, etc. It all depends on the units leaders what happens to them. PFC Smith, might be slick, and swipe a case and take it downtown to make a quick Jackson, or whatever. The bottom line is, they may not return to any warehouse. I've seen cases stacked up in conex boxes, platoon TOE cages in the basement, etc. I'd always swipe a case or 2 whenever I went on leave.(Not to sell, to take home to Dad,LOL) Thats how it was when I was in. It could be different now.

[Sr. Wing Commander]

Ditto, the short time I was in ROTC, (I got hurt on my own time so I didn't get commissioned) when we were issued MRE from either are training NCO or from the local guard unit we trained with I would never eat all of them. I was normally issued 4-6 for the weekend and I might eat 2 or 3. So I ended up having a couple left over and they could NOT take them back. So I ended up with a collection that I usually gave to the Civil Air Patrol unit I had been in. Had ebay been around back then that's probably where they would go.