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Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:15 pm
by Cracker
I'm walking a 4 day 50km hike, that's why I need a "custom" MRE for 4 days, packing it all in my rucksack, and carrying it for 4 days.

It's not forbidden to "restock" or something, I'm only doing it to prove myself I can do it (ok and my employer)
I don't have to break my head on finding a suitable dinner, because a hot meal is provided by the Dutch Army (field kitchen)

I have to keep it as light as possible for 4 days, it has to be nutricious, and I need to keep hydrated

I composed the 4day MRE as:

Meals (breakfast/lunch)

8 packs of Biscuits (Wheatcrackers) (from Dutch 24H rations)
8 packs of Luikse stroop (apple sirup) (from Dutch 24H rations)
8 packs of Crème paté (creampaté) (from Dutch 24H rations)
4 packs of Beef Jerky (Flavour: Classic, that means less salt and spices) (Civil)

Snacks:
1 roll of mentos fruit flavoured sweets (from the Dutch 24H ration)
1x 100gr bag of pine seeds (pijnboompitten) of sunflower seeds (Civil)
2 small bars of dark choclate (From the Dutch 24H ration or German EPa; same bar)

Drinking:

3,5 litres of water per day in case of hot weather (restocked every day, I cant carry it for 4 days)
2 litres of water per day in case of rainy weather (restocked..)
4 packs of Citroendrank powder (lemon drink) (from Dutch 24H rations)
8 packs of Exotic drink powder (from German EPa)

Health/hygiene:
1 pack of paracetamol (light painkiller)
2 rolls of Dextrose tablets (half roll per day..) to supply energy (from Dutch 24H rations)
4 packs of glucose rehydration powder in case of hot weather (from the German army, not sure if it is in the EPa)
1 roll of toilet paper (civil)8 packs of refreshment napkins (Erfrischungstuch)(from the German EPa)
Not really part of the MRE but: Tiny first aid kit (Civil) with things like blister thingies, desinfectant, bandaids, tape (for feet) etc..

Is this everything, or am I overlooking something that should really be in my "living" gear..
What would you really take with you as food or rehydration?

Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:26 pm
by housil
Cracker wrote: 4 packs of glucose rehydration powder in case of hot weather (from the German army, not sure if it is in the EPa)

Glucose rehydration powder ?! :shock:

Any pic´s?
In an EPa is regular sugar only to sweeten the coffee and tea. I have no idea what do you mean with glucose rehydration powder :?:

I bet, after the third day you are fed up with eating buscuits two times a day... Take some variety with you. MRE-crackers, wheat snack bread, EPa bread, Panzerplatten... (same size and weight like the biscuits)

Snacks?
Take with you what ever you like, there will be no usefull recommandations from somebody else.

The only real source of rehydration is WATER. You can use it for everything - even plain (if you are thirsty enough you will love it)

When we were walking a couple of days, we always had some EPa´s, MRE´s etc. with us. One EPa = one day of enough food. 2 MRE´s can be "stretched" to feed you one day. We never had any field kitchen feeding on hikes (Biwaks). We allways had to carry our food AND gear (tent half, sleeping bag, rain suits...) Didn´t got resupllied.

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2nd guy is realy me!

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Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:39 pm
by Bypah
housil basically said all....get plenty of water and try a variety for your biscuits.....unless you want to feel like having "bread and water" after a couple of days... :lol:

Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:55 pm
by Cracker
I only have civilian Hartkeks and Dutch biscuits at the moment, but I lived from them for 2 weeks at some occasions.. yes, it's a bit bad to eat the same thing over and over, but I'm not really able to get any other type of wheatcrackers at the moment..

I will make a picture of the powder ASAP.
Water is NOT a good rehydrant ;) you need minerals and sugars so your cells can absorb the moist, it's called osmose
If you drink normal water, you will get some fluids in your body, and yes it will rehydrate, but if you add some salt and sugar (just a little) your body will absorb it much faster..

The german powder is actually to prevent dehydration because of diarrhea..

The hike takes place in Nijmegen and the area around it. It's simply urban, and the nights are spend on fieldbeds and there is simply a kitchen at the site.. :D (Never ever travel without a complete kitchen..!)

At biwaks you just get Dutch 24H and 2 cans.. (If your lucky)
And...... in snowy conditions, they sometimes were so nice to tell us "no fire!".. so only cold meals.. at -15*C..

Especially the lasagna bolognese forms a big prop of solid FAT.. (and try getting it down to your stomach)

Housil are you maybe able to sell me some different wheat crackers?
I only have 1 pack of MRE crackers.. but it looks if only 2 of those are in the whole MRE

Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:59 pm
by housil
Cracker wrote: Water is NOT a good rehydrant ;) you need minerals and sugars so your cells can absorb the moist, it's called osmose
If you drink normal water, you will get some fluids in your body, and yes it will rehydrate, but if you add some salt and sugar (just a little) your body will absorb it much faster..

The german powder is actually to prevent dehydration because of diarrhea..
I´m a profesionall paramedic and medical supervisor.

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(Me teatching US MP´s)

I can tell you "ton´s" about "osmose" from hypo-, iso-, hypertone de-and rehydratation. Kidney regulated acid-base-balance, water-electrolyte-balance. ph-value... (but this is MRE-Forums :wink: )

As long as "rehydratation" means "drinking" for you, drink isotone (or less) only!! Isotone = 0.9% = 9grams of "salt" (sodium cloride) per liter
Salted water may cause nausea and vomiting => loosing body liquid

Be carefull with sugar too! Too much sugar is also osmotic and "pull´s" water into your intestines and CAUSE you diarrhea! => loosing body liquid. But a dash of both wouldn´t harm. :wink:

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(Me and Mrs. housil on duty on advanced cardiac life support ambulance)

I allways have my emergency rucksack with me, but I´m doing mechanized hike´s only

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But I still want to know what you mean with the German powder?
There are some calcium fizzy tablets with the EPa leicht, should provide the body with calcium (!) after loosing it from sweating. Little, white bags. Maybe one of these?

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Try to post a pic, will be very helpfull!
Cracker wrote: I only have 1 pack of MRE crackers.. but it looks if only 2 of those are in the whole MRE
Usually a MRE contains two "sheets" of (veggi) crackers.
Actually, as I´m not a dealer, I don´t sale. I´m sorry.
You can get German EPa "Panzerplatten" from a regular store called http://www.dauerbrot.de fur just €1.02 brand new!!

http://www.dauerbrot.de/auflagebeilageu ... rtkeks.php

Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:25 pm
by Cracker
It's ELOtrans® pulver.. Elektrolyt-Glucose-Mischung bei Durchfallerkrankungen 6,03g from NIDDApharm.
I'm not a trained professional, but I'm well aware of the risks of to much salt or sugar.

Not enough drinking (or adding to much minerals) can cause blood mineral levels to rise so much that it can cause heart problems, and drinking to much can make your blood more thin, which can cause brain problems (breinödem.. don't know how to say it in english)

I know the signs of drinking to much and to little, and got used to it (also checked body weight etc), that's also how I calculated how much water I should take with me. This depends per person, but if you dehydrate to much you should simply drink enough, and the glucose mix is simply to help your body to absorb it faster, and is not for normal use, only when you really need it.

I'm not a paramedic, and only have a firstaid background (Oranje Kruis)

Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:32 am
by housil
Cracker wrote:It's ELOtrans® pulver.. Elektrolyt-Glucose-Mischung bei Durchfallerkrankungen 6,03g from NIDDApharm.
I'm not a trained professional, but I'm well aware of the risks of to much salt or sugar.
This is a pharmacy only medicin to cure (heavy) losses from diarrhea! You have to mixt the powder with exactly the right amount of water making sure the solution will be isotone!
This is a non-regular-EPa item for sure and nothing that should be used by non-professional as you can cause what you want to aviode...
Cracker wrote: Not enough drinking (or adding to much minerals) can cause blood mineral levels to rise so much that it can cause heart problems, and drinking to much can make your blood more thin, which can cause brain problems (breinödem.. don't know how to say it in english)
As I said before, this is MRE-Forums, not bio scientist forums, but we have to deal daily with blood levels and the treatment of lapse. You will never see ANY of this danger for life lapse (Entgleisung) by just drinking water, not even by drinking too much. As long as you don´t suffer from a renal diseasse and need to go to dialyses three times a week or forcing too much water in you on purpose.
That symptoms (heart problems) you described are the "worst case" if your Kalium (potassium) is lower 3.5mmol/l (causing ventricular fibrillation => CPR and shocks) and higher 5mmol/l (causing a cardiac arrest => CPR).

But you are right, drink if you are thirsty, use your common sens. I never calculated the water I have to take with me. At biwak, we had two canteens with us and got resupllied by melting snow or raking it from clean creek/ditch.

Also that brain edema. You (an adault) need to drink more that 5 liters of (hypotone) water within a very short time to causing you a lethal water intoxication. But lack of water is your problem on a hike - not too much... :wink:

Cracker wrote: (Oranje Kruis)
Bayerisches Rotes Kreuz

Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:29 pm
by Cracker
I am not taking the powder to use it, just "in case off"
The risk of dehydration is there, last year some people died of heart failure because of hydration/overheating problems..

I am not planning to use it, I am only drinking normal water with some added flavour (lemon or exotic drink powder)
That should already do the trick, and I am well aware of the problem of dehydration, so I am not really a "problem" person with the dehydration problem, it's simply a emergency something I think I should take with me.

Last time I got food poisioning, probably from eating salad (european cold salad, with stuff like egg and meat in it) and I'm not planning to drop out because of something like diarrhea this time :wink:

I know the problems are only worst case scenarios, but I probably don't have to tell you (if I see your pics) the best motto is "be prepared" :wink:

Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:33 pm
by Bypah
Reading all your posts i learned something new about keeping yourself hydrated.
Specially when you have problems like diabetes,HBP and use a bunch of meds that make you loose Ka a lot.... :mrgreen:

Thanks housil,... :D
"Danke fur die informationen mein freund!!"
Peace!
8)

Re: Composing a civil hike MRE

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:00 am
by housil
Cracker wrote: The risk of dehydration is there, last year some people died of heart failure because of hydration/overheating problems..
These "some peoples" are usually "87 years" old and dehydrated all the time. :wink:
We had two of them last night as we are back to 30°C (86°F) and this "old peoples" don´t drink enough for days and weeks.

You and me, "young" folks with a norm sensation of thirst don´t have to worry about. Just if you want to have a long, exhausting walk/hike (like you will do) at high temperatures. Just drink "normal" water (sparkling water, soda water, Mineralwasser etc.). Your systems allways equals the water in your belly to it´s "isoton condtion" before ingest. Every "manipulation" of minerals will cause your guts more "work" before ingesting into systems! Contains the water to much (> than isoton = 0.9% sodium ) "salt" (sodium chlorid NaCl),that hyperton water "pulls" water out of your system into your guts first (!), to dilute it until it´s isotone.

But back to roots. Your initial questions was, what to take for rehydration.
I´m taking ordinary (faucet) water with me as I can add every thing I want to it. Even "your" salt ans sugar if I want.
What I actually want to say was, don´t take any e.g. "isotone sports drinks" with you as you can´t make coffee, tea etc. from it (tastes bad) and it´s a waste of the expansive stuff to heat your MRE pouch in it.
That´s actually what I want to say! :wink:
bypah wrote: Reading all your posts i learned something new about keeping yourself hydrated.
Specially when you have problems like diabetes,HBP and use a bunch of meds that make you loose Ka a lot....
You are welcome mate :wink:
Diabetes will cause you a lack of body liqide when your body tries to eliminate the ketone by a higer rate of urin. That´s causing you a thirst allways and a need to go to the bathroom very often. Thats the first symptons of diabetes.

This folks have to take care at high temperatures etc. and a well supply and treatment with their insuline.


See a snapshot I took from an emergency we had to respond this morning at 6:30am (still from nightshift) at the interstate. After the treatment at the (ACLS) ambulance, we had to call a lifeflight to transport the patient in a 100km far special hospital. 1.5 hrs to drive or less than 30 min´s to fly :D

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Eurocopter EC 135